Jim Hohnberger

Pipim Redux? Historic Adventist Leader Jim Hohnberger Admits to Improper Dalliance—Withdraws From Ministry in Disgrace

Following barely two months after Samuel Koranteng-Pipim’s resignation in disgrace following an affair with a person of unknown gender, Jim Hohnberger, another well-known proponent of perfection theology, has abruptly admitted to “inappropriate physical interaction” with a close associate and suspended his “ministry,” cancelling all speaking engagements.

From last month’s email:

What I am about to share with you is not what we came to the mountains for, it is not what we are about. Regrettably, I must confess my failure and ask each and every one of you for forgiveness. Over many years I grew very close with an individual that I came to know and work with, although there was no sexual intercourse there was inappropriate physical interactions. I humbly ask and hope you can find it in your hearts to please forgive me for discrediting the message that I preach and the hurt that this must cause to so many.

I have gone to my God, the one that I came here to find and I have asked Him for His forgiveness and His empowering grace to make me anew. He is taking me through true repentance and deep remorse and a brokenness I have never known before. Consequences have befallen me. I have withdrawn myself from ministry that I may spend the time needed in reflection, realistic self-evaluation, and getting direction from God and His Word.

You can browse his “discredited message” (his words, not mine!) on his resource page that seems to have not been taken down with the rest of his website. You can also buy an audio track or two produced with his “general manager” who we could presume he “came to know and work with” rather closely.

To be fair though, he says there wasn’t any sex. I guess whatever he did was better than what those Southern guys were caught doing. My questions: is there a stained “little blue dress” involved? A cigar? Also, who’s next?

Update: As of 7:00 pm Eastern Time, the homepage of Mr. Hohnberger’s ministry website is no longer showing an unavailable message.

82 thoughts on “Pipim Redux? Historic Adventist Leader Jim Hohnberger Admits to Improper Dalliance—Withdraws From Ministry in Disgrace”

  1. I am sad for these people. A lot of what they teach is perfectly good and encouraging, but then they get mixed up with misleading interpretations of prophecy and perfection theology. I’m sad that he did this sinful thing, whatever it might be, but I’m also sad that he probably feels the weight of God’s wrath on his shoulders. Sure, these people give a lot of lip service to God’s mercy and love, but ultimately it is cognitive dissonance at work because their view of God makes Him the source of death, and that death will be the result of displeasing Him (rather than the natural consequence of sin). That has to be mentally and emotionally distressing.

    One of the issues that I see with perfectionism is that much of the focus is on the external behavior of humans instead of on focusing on God as manifested by Jesus. Furthermore, perfection theology seems to deny that forgiveness is part of God’s character. Instead of believing that God wishes to heal and brings us into harmony with his laws because that is how He created life to prosper, they think that Jesus had to die simply to satiate God’s anger and that leads to the implication that God does not have true unconditional love for humanity.

    Some people at my home church in Texas (although ironically I’ve met much more progressive congregations at Southern!) teach that we must be “perfect” before Jesus comes, which in their minds means completely without sin. But anyone who says at any point of their lives that they are without sin is a liar! If you go back to the verses just before Jesus says to be “perfect like our Father in heaven” (Matthew 5:38-48), we see that He is talking about love–in other words, LOVE is truly the fulfillment of the law–not a mere legal keeping of the ten commandments. The point of perfection isn’t making sure you follow all the rules, we become perfect in His image when we treat others the way our Father in heaven treats people.

    Perfection theology erroneously puts the focus on the behavior of the last day people, instead of focusing on the relationship of Jesus and what He is doing through His people. The perfectionist view is human centered instead of God centered. If it was God centered, then they would place less focus on people becoming perfect, and focus on how the passage reflects how our Father in heaven is actually so perfect for us!

    1.  @katwalker I’m sad for you.
      “Tell me which was more likely to help Mr. Hohnberger avoid falling into the temptation of adultery – keeping the Sabbath, tithing 10%, and being vegan, or putting the basic law of love for others first?”
      So, if my car runs flat, does this mean I was wrong to repair the engine and to put gas in the tank? Your logic is flawed, friend.
      You are right that love is the fulfillment of law, but not keeping the law is a clear sign that you don’t have THE RIGHT LOVE. The law is like a compass: it shows the direction, but some confuse it with the destination or think that the compass will carry them to destination.
      Relationship with Jesus includes keeping the law. “If you love me, you keep my commandments” – is very  clear stated.
      Law is a reflection of God’s character. If you exclude the moral law, words like “love”, “relationship”, “Jesus” etc are just empty words and cheap theology.
      “One of the issues that I see with perfectionism is that much of the focus is on the external behavior of humans instead of on focusing on God as manifested by Jesus.”
      How about focusing on BOTH? Some people are thinking binary only: that OR that. But in fact is that AND that.

      1.  @mens_sana Don’t worry my friend, you don’t need to feel sad for me, because Jesus has made me new, and continues to renew my heart every day.  Salvation and atonement is a constant process of growing, and I like to think I am making progress.  :)I’m afraid that you don’t understand the argument I was making.  Let me clarify:
        You said: “How about focusing on BOTH? Some people are thinking binary only: that OR that. But in fact is that AND that.”
        If you are following the spirit of the law rather than the letter, you don’t really need to be concerned about focusing on the law.  Because the point of ANY of the laws of God is to live in harmony with the law of love for Him and others.  They are not arbitrary tests of obedience; they work toward a common goal.  It is possible for a focus on the law from the wrong perspective to become a very twisted, negative thing that takes you farther away from God.Sadly, some Adventists tend to lean toward that mindset because they believe so strongly in their unique message that they are afraid of having to re-examine their motivations.  And so like the Pharisees, they cling onto their doctrines because to them it’s more about their identity (and thus the “proof” that God thinks they are special) than it is about the real reasons WHY they should be keeping those laws in the first place.But when your heart is right with Christ, you will be automatically obeying God’s ideal without having to constantly second-guess yourself.  :)
        You do not eat healthy just because you want to go to heaven, you eat healthy because you want to take care of His creation (both the body He gave you and His planet).  You don’t choose to not commit adultery because you want yourself to be pure and perfect, you choose not to do such things because you care about not hurting other people emotionally.  You rest on the Sabbath not because you want to be a better Christian than those Sunday-keeping heathens, but because you trust in God’s wisdom that he designed us with a need to have quiet time and you love Him so much that you want to spend an entire day just being with Him.  And so on.  
        When you have that mindset in place, the mindset that thinks about what’s best for others and your own relationship with God, don’t you agree you’ll already be obeying the 10 commandments without even having to think about it?  And it will be a joy to do so, because that is how God created life to flourish!  Even the plants and animals live in an ecosystem where each one gives and takes to help the others.  We invite death and destruction when we break that cycle with sin and selfishness.
        To me, THIS is what “the right love” truly is.  :)

  2. I believe that a lot of people like Hohnberger probably start off with sincere motives when they set up ministries and projects similar to what he had. But then they get so caught up in the “works”, in perfection, that they lose sight of what’s really important and end up committing the same things that they preach so adamantly against, or worse.

  3. Mr. Hohnburgers failure was a shock, but being human it wasnt unbelievable. This doesn’t mean his ministry was false in anyway. His books are very powerful tools for finding a closer walk with God! My wife and I have a closer daily walk with christ and an amazing mariage, thanks to our God who used Empowered Living Ministries to reach us. Thanks so much Jim and Sally! We will be praying for you!

  4. How do you know he was involved with Janell Garey, a woman half his age? He just says someone he worked closely with; this also could mean his personal assistant, Jeanette Houghtelling, couldn’t it?

  5. Is it true that this was going on for several years and his wife turned a blind eye to it? Also, is he just confessing because he got caught?

  6. Instead of judge him let’s judge ourselves… It sure was disappointing and it will always be while we keep looking at people instead of Christ so again, let’s not judge brother Jon but pray for him and for all that had their lives changed by his blessed and inspired ministry that brought countless families closer to God.

  7. There appears to be much more to the situation than Jim is “confessing” to. It is sad that he chooses to continue his ministry in light of what he has been concealing for the last 8 years.

  8. Apparently Jim had been having sexual contact with Janell Garey, his personal assistant for the last 8 years. Jim now apparently feels that it’s no big deal and that he can continue to sell his materials on his website. Jim, the message you preach is now tainted because obviously it didn’t work in your life, obviously you didn’t care to apply it to your own life.

  9. @NobodyImportant Jim’s confession letter was masterfully designed to elicit sympathy for himself in the eyes of his supporters. He was not forthcoming with the depths of his ongoing deceit. If you knew what Jim had been doing for 8 years with his personal assistant I doubt you would support his ministry.

    1.  @hohnbergeraffair “When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”” John 8:7:)

  10. @hohnbergeraffair@NobodyImportant Respectfully, how do you know Jim’s intention? I thought only God could read the heart. We do not know if his confession is sincere or not. I guess I would question whether his confession was voluntary on his part or if the affair was discovered, first of all. Second, even if he was pushed into a public confession, we still do not know what God is doing in his heart. Can someone be a man after God’s own heart and still deliberately commit a sexual sin? Read the story of David for the answer.

  11. @hohnbergeraffair You say “if you knew what Jim had been doing for 8 years. . .” The only people who know for certain what Jim was doing are Jim himself and the other woman. You do not know. And nothing in Jim’s letter alluded to 8 years. How did you determine the affair had gone on this long? I don’t believe it is necessary for Jim to be forthcoming about the details of the “depth of his deceit”. Much of that information would not be edifying to the church. That is between him, his wife, and God. You do not know for a fact that Jim did not care to apply his message to his own life. We do not know how he may have struggled with this sin, as many of us have struggled to overcome deeply entrenched habits.

  12. @bbcatcher Jim “confessed” after the other woman broke down and told the office manager the details of the 8 year affair and they both resigned without notice. The office manager confronted Jim and Sally in the presence of an Adventist pastor with details and Jim did not deny them. Jim’s public letter did not even scratch the surface.

  13. @bbcatcher@NobodyImportant Jim’s public letter was deceitful as it did not address the depths to which he had gone in carrying on 8 years of deceit and sexual misconduct with an unmarried woman while he was himself married. There is a growing group of people who have access to details that apparently you do not. If you had these details (to which there is handwritten letter from Jim where he affirms the allegations are true) then you might not be so quick to support his ministry. Yes God can heal him, but Jim must be honest first.

  14. @DarrellM It makes you wonder since apparently Jim couldn’t live out his own message. 8 years of sexual contact with your personal assistant seems in direct conflict with the messages in his books. There are decadent details about all of this that Jim doesn’t necessarily want his supporters to know. Personally, I cannot read his material again knowing what he did over the past 8 years.

  15. So where can I find these details? I have financially supported this ministry for almost 20 years, and have been so blessed by many of his sermons. It is very hard to understand how someone can stand in the pulpit and say “I’m IN love with my wife!” and that Janell is his “adopted daughter” if they were carrying on like that over a long period of time. I could understand more a momentary lapse, but a long, drawn-out affair?

  16. Yes, I agree, and I think this is a sad consequence of not understanding how God’s law is supposed to work. So much energy and stress is put into following all the little details, but only results in completely missing the point. Tell me which was more likely to help Mr. Hohnberger avoid falling into the temptation of adultery – keeping the Sabbath, tithing 10%, and being vegan, or putting the basic law of love for others first? I think legalistic theology is inherently self-serving. Some religious people like focusing on petty little rules and regulations because those are much easier to follow than to work on fundamentally changing your character and putting others before yourself. The latter requires real sacrifice, the former requires maybe a little self-discipline, but in the end won’t be as nearly as difficult as taking a good look at yourself and confront who you really are.

    With legalism you still get to reap the rewards of outward holiness and fool everyone into thinking you’re right with God, but you aren’t. Hohnberger may have started out with the right intentions, but he got distracted from what really matters. That I think is a big danger in our denomination; that we don’t have to self-examine our motives because we already have “the truth” and thus are already holy. We keep all of God’s laws, so that alone means we’ve reached atonement, doesn’t it? The Pharisees would go to great lengths to strain a gnat out of their water to avoid eating unclean foods, but they still crucified God. Knowledge, while important, does not equal redemption, and in many cases too much focus on such things lulls us into a false sense of security when we rely on our own self-righteousness instead of Christ’s righteousness.

    That’s why Adventists like Doug Bachelor, Cliff Goldstein, Samuel Pipim, the brain trust at EducateTruth, and plenty of people we know in our personal lives tend to focus on condemning the behavior of others and how everyone else is bad/wrong/sinful/apostate. The harsher and more angry they are in their accusations, the more it makes me think “wow, what are you hiding underneath all that fear and hatred?”. Pipim has already reaped the consequences of his worldview, and I pray that the others have a change of heart before Satan uses it against them as well. If they don’t, it’s only a matter of time.

  17. ONE CANNOT SPEAK OR TEACH OF THOSE THINGS WITHOUT KNOWING ABOUT THEM.“Jesus… He has promised to send pastors to do His work. He will send those who have fallen and know firsthand the importance of repentance. One cannot speak or teach of those things without knowing about them. He reminds me how the Herald showed me Pipim and Hohnberger and others like them. These are teachers who teach according to God’s instructions. I was shown how they and others have been forgiven and stand ready to do a great work…..Jesus instructs that… Let those He ordained and commissioned but who have fallen and repented, like Pipim and Hohnberger, if they are willing, let them rise up to serve in the For My People Ministry.” Jhon 8:11, Ellen white, Patriarchs and Prophets, pp. 690-691. The Final Messenger for God’s Church Ernie knoll Dream: “Remorse or Rejoice”.  http://www.formypeople.org/En/57_remorse_or_rejoice.shtml

  18. Speaking of fallen pastors, unfortunately Ernie Knoll’s dreams have been proven to be nothing but an attention-grabbing stunt. That isn’t me being skeptical, he has already admitted to this himself. It is very shameful that he even keeps them posted on the internet and continues to mislead people. He seems to be an emotionally unstable man who wishes he was a prophet, and is not above lying (he says he just has “dreams”, but clearly he wants people to accept them as prophetic and many do) as long as he can receive people’s praise and admiration.Edgar, while earthly teachers can be a wonderful blessing, I would advise you not to seek the counsel of men as the deciding factor in anything but to seek God and ask Him to send you understanding on your own terms. It is easy to be misled when you become a “fan” of pastors/writers/evangelists/etc. instead of balancing your critical thinking and focusing on Jesus alone.

  19. i believe God gives us some words of advice in his word When He called David a Man after his own own heart and told Solomn that David kept his comandments in 1kings 3:14 So if you walk in My ways, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as your fat her David walked, … Really David!! There is only one way God can say this about David! God Never lies but he does forgive and forgets!!! David sinned much but because of davids repentence God sees His Son Jesus when he looks at and discribes David and not Davids sins!

    There are manny many people! Me included and probably you as well who Jim has blesed uplifted and even helped bring u closer to God! If Jim has asked for Gods forgiveness and God Remembers it no more!!! Who are we!

    I am thankful for How God Has used Jim in the past and hearing or reeading about this should and does not change what good God has done through him! if anything this should be a reminder that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God! Without Him we can do nothing!! so lets hold tighter to our Savior and pray for Jim as he has done for many!

  20. Giovanni,

    Have you glorified God with this post?
    Have you built somebody up?
    Why so eager to point at the sins of others? Are you not one of us “sinners”?
    Are you without fault to cast the first stone? Why didn’t you offer a prayer for Jim and Sally instead, asking for God’s restoration? How can you cause such damage and sleep at night?

    Don’t you realize that the devil attacks harder those who are actually doing something for the Lord? He doesn’t have to worry much about the rest who instead of spreading the good news, are spreading gossip, pointing at others.
    May God have mercy on you.

  21. I have to agree that sometimes in his youthful exuberance Giovanni seems to take a little too much satisfaction when those he disagrees with take a fall, but I know he will mature with time as we all do. However, it is unwise to use arguments like this to try and deflect legitimate criticism from SDA leaders who should know better, but time and time again prove that they don’t. Would you be as quick to dismiss the situation if the crime was (instead of adultery) something like child molestation? If we fail to keep people with power and authority publicly accountable, then more things like this will happen. I think some Adventists are way too defensive of their favorite preachers and have the bad habit of mistaking criticism for personal attacks (although to be fair, sometimes the line can be blurred). We do need to stop the unhealthy cult of personality – maybe all these recent scandals are God’s way of waking us up so we stop focusing on fallible men and start trusting in Him alone.

    While it’s not necessary to kick people when they’re down, it’s also unfair to not expect Mr. Hohnberger to live up to the message he preaches. How hurtful do you think it is to me, a woman who loves God and wishes that my church did not discriminate against me on the basis of my gender, to be told that I am inferior and unfit for ministry due to my womanhood, but these men who fragrantly abuse the privileges they set aside for themselves are still entitled to be pastors? Why doesn’t THAT sound like Satan’s work to you?

    “Don’t you realize that the devil attacks harder those who are actually doing something for the Lord?”That is absolutely not true in this case. The devil did not “attack” Mr. Hohnberger. Adultery is something you choose to do, it’s not beyond your control. He sinned of his own free will. I dare say the devil didn’t need to attack Hohnberger in the first place, because the man was already playing into his hands.

  22. Giovanni, i don’t know if you are a Christian – but if you are, do you realise that Christ died on the cross for this man that you mock? It is God’s own son that you mock. These man who’s falls you glory in are God’s children and His heart bleeds for them! If you are a Christian, I counsel you to read the story of Moses. The Isralites (God’s nation) treated Moses with such contempt and disobedience, yet when God was ready to strike their names out of the book of life – Moses pleaded with God, that instead of striking out the names of these evil people that brought shame on God’s name, that He would wipe out his own name. Giovanni, a true Christian like Moses did not rejoice at the shortcomings and serious flaws of God’s people, no – he offered his own life – ETERNAL LIFE – for those sick and pathetic folks.

    Please don’t think of yourself better than others, compare yourself only to Christ. When you compare yourself to Christ, you will see yourself for what you really are – and that is a sinner, in need of repentance, as are all of us.

  23. @katwalker

    Katwalker- your general tone and choice of targets indicate that you perhaps have some issues of your own to deal with! To attack Doug Batchelor- well, you seem intent on taking out your hostilities on anyone and everyone. “You who are without sin cast the first stone”

    1.  @deebee I’ve gone through my posts in this thread and have not even mentioned Doug Bachelor by name, nor have I said anything that implies any sort of obvious personal attack.  Regardless, I will try to make sure I don’t fall into that trap in the future.
      On that note, I like to stick to attacking arguments and bad ideas rather than people – however in absolutely every reply you’ve made directed to me has been incredibly condescending and maligning of my character/state of mental health, even though you have absolutely no idea who I really am.  
      Even if you disagree with me, I’d be interested if you at least had something of substance to say.  Perhaps you should gracefully bow out of this conversation if you are just looking for a petty fight and not interested in heightening the quality of intellectual discourse here.

  24. I have listened to many (more than 100) of Jim & Sally Hohnberger’s tapes and sermons some of them more than one or two times. Let me just say that I have never heard either of them at anytime preach “perfection theology” in fact just the opposite. I have also heard many of the other Godly preachers and teachers referred to in the posts below and I would have to say that I have never heard them condemn any persons behavior publicly. I have heard them exhort, encourage and at times condemn certain behaviors, all of which the bible condemns as well by the way. It has always been done in a kind an loving way with out finger pointing. This is not wrong or legalistic. It is part of the christian life, The message of the Gospel doesn’t stop at the foot of the cross that is just the beginning of the christian walk, we are to be followers and doers. And Satan loves nothing better than cheap grace and a gospel without the power to transform lives.

    My heart breaks for both Jim & Sally I count them as friends even though we have never met. I pray that god will heal their hearts and family through this trial in their lives. And may I just say that the reason Jim fell in this area is not a problem with his theology. He fell because he thought he knew better and he took his eyes off Christ and allowed himself to be in certain situations. Also don’t forget, David, Moses, Elijah, Peter, James, John and Paul. They fell, and God picked them up and set them back on the road again. Physical sin can happen to anyone, whether you are a liberal, legalist or just a plain sinner (which we all are) but because he was a public figure we all tend to say he knew the truth he should have known better, well we all should but we all sin anyway.

    Pray for these dear people of God they need our prayers desperately!

    1. @quiltfarmer 
      Dearest quiltfarmer:  Your comment shows that you can see both the forrest and the trees.  Thank you for a wonderful contribution that is meaningful and with in the bounds of Christianity rather than churchianity.  We are all sinners here and we each WORK out our salvation with fear and trembling.
      (A very taboo thought for those who think its all good:  when it is,  gossip is good.)

  25. @quiltfarmer

    You say:

    “Pray for these dear people of God they need our prayers desperately!”

    I was just reading chapter 11, The Privilege of Prayer, from ‘Steps to Christ’ the other day. It made me realise how often we miss the point of prayer.

    I so wished the “conerned bretheren” (CB’s) in our church would read that chapter. Prayer is not some magic wand that fixes people and makes God do what we want Him to and override free will. Yet we often affix such a superstitious dimension to prayer.

    Prayer is supposed to make us realise *our* weakness and *our* need of God. As a result of that we also realise all of humanity’s need of God. We no longer judge and look down on our fellow man. There is no longer this divise view of “God’s people” and “The World”, we’re all in the same boat *shock horror* ;)

    So no, it’s not “they” that need our prayers desperately. If our prayers haven’t softened our hard hearts, they’re just pointless words. Don’t believe me, read the chapter. :P

  26. When the Hohnbergers came to our church, there were no empty seats. The church was so full, you couldn’t even breath. Whenever there’s somebody else preaching, people don’t mind coming late, leaving the room for a little chit chat etc.
    What I saw when Jim Hohnberger was preaching, was deeply admiration for his person. Probably some of the listeners were only curious, but most of them felt deep admiration for this person.
    For me, it doesn’t matter who is telling a message, unless it’s God’s word and HIS message.
    I’m not interested in the way people live their personal life, which hour  they get up in the morning, how many hours they pray a day, how they raise their children.
    When I heard about Jim Hohnberger cheating on his wife I simply had to laugh. How sad and disappointed his “followers” must be! How could such a holy and blessed person make such a big mistake? Dishonouring his wife in such a humiliating way?
    I have a single answer to all people who are disappointed: Stop admiring PEOPLE, if God wants to speak to us, he can find many other men and women, it mustn’t be celebrity Jim Hohnberger.
    I would really like to know where the money they earn with their books really goes, but maybe we will never know. As a matter of fact it’s not the honest way to cheat on your wife and then continue selling books that make you seem like the perfect husband, father, christian, the PERFECT human being alive!
    We have all made mistakes, let’s concentrate on what Jesus Christ wants to tell us through the Bible or through the pastors serving every single Sabbath. They might not always be right, but I hope people have finally understood that the Hohnbergers in our world are neither.

    1.  @forgethohnberger I had the same reaction.  I wasn’t surprised at all.  The really strict people who propose “perfection” are often really controlling and difficult to get along with. Yet people put them on a pedestal like they are a god or something.  Always made me sick.  I read his first book and then no more for me.  It made me just sick how he controlled his wife so much and family, all in the name of “religion” and God.  I think Jesus needs to be lifted up and people need to stop looking at other PEOPLE who we think have it all put together.  They don’t.  They are human like us.  Welcome, Jim, to the human race.  

    2. @forgethohnberger Interesting:  You did the very thing you asked the rest of us not to do.  Think about this sentence:  ” it’s not (the) honest (way) to cheat on your wife and then continue selling books that make you seem like the perfect husband, father, christian, the PERFECT human being alive!
      Make up your mind!  You cannot have it both ways!

  27. What is the difference between a Conservative and a Liberal Christian.  A conservative Christian, whwn he is found out about hid extramrrital affairs will admit to it and repent.  However when a liberal Christian is found out he will deny it and try to cover it up.  And so this happened with Morris Venden – the god of many Adventists.  He was accused of having an extra marital affair with a new convert to Adventism called Claudia Burrow.  But what does Morris do he denies it and tries to cover it up by moving to another place to continue in his employment.  Why doesn’t admit and repent?  Because his theology of sinning till Jesus comes allows him to be deceitful and have extramarital affairs.

    1.  @PeterCieslar Pipim didn’t have an “extramarital affair”, though.  He raped a much younger, powerless, vulnerable young woman.  He forced himself on her and it was in no way consensual.  By the way, Pipim did attempt to cover it up by waiting several months after the fact to confess, and even then it seems only as a matter of damage control.  In a way he is still covering it up, because he is trying to make himself look deserving of sympathy rather than admit to destroying someone’s life through his predatory behavior.
      Also, pointing at the sins of others to try to deflect legitimate criticism is a cheap silencing tactic, not to mention incredibly childish.  I have no idea who Morris Venden is or what he did, but he’s no less responsible for his own wrongdoings as Pipim or Hohnberger are.  Nobody’s even suggesting such a thing.

  28. And I killed Christ, and according to God so have you…everyone falls…public figures fall publicly while private figures fall privatley. Nebuchadnezzar repented, Manasseh repented. Stop putting Pipim and Jim, and the others on a pedestal and realize that they like everyone else are all faced with temptations like we are…all sin is equal in the eyes of God…if we lust after someone in our mid we have committed adultery so im sure no one person is better than the other. dont forget David..oh and keep in mind Adam and Eve,,,did you ever read about how Lucifer fell…he was in the very presence of God and he still fell. Sin is not funny, it is NEVER funny when people fall…to my own mind, a person who laughs when a person falls is worse than the person who had fallen. ITS TIME TO STOP LOOKING AT PEOPLE…we need to start focusing on CHRIST….woe to spiritual Israel as there is much hypocrisy in the church. and one more thing…we are told that some people will only come to Christ through OUR prayers. stop praying selfish prayers about ourselves and start praying for others…when we lose sight of ourselves and start seeking to pray and to help and to bless others God will take care of us… Proberbs 11:25″He that watereth shall be watered also himself”

  29. I just want to say that what Jim Hohnberger says in his books is true.  I’ve been totally blessed by his message.  But, I will tell you it is not enough to know what is true in this life.  One must diligently remain connected to Christ and bring every thought into obedience to His perfect will.  Unless we are willing to do this, we will be easy prey for the devil…and his temptations will take root and bear fruit in our lives.  Even knowing this truth did not keep Jim connected.  When one feels needs in their lives, aches that they feel aren’t being eased by Christ, they often look for their own answers.  This is where the trouble begins.  We must learn to live with ache…to be patient and wait on the Lord.
    Jim should be embraced during this time, not condemned or totally discredited.  God can restore him and make him ten times better than he was before.  God allows us to fall, sometimes miserably, to teach us that we can do absolutely nothing without Him…to return us to humble dependence upon Him.
    Jim needs the support of Christian brothers and sisters who will not stand in condemnation and judgment of him, but will encourage him to even now, learn to lean upon the grace, mercy, and overcoming strength of his Creator and Redeemer.
    “Love Covers A Multitude Of Sins”.  Rather than exposing Jim’s sins, as the “accuser of the brethren” would have us do (which causes only hurt, not only to the one who sinned, but to the power and influence of the words of truth that God inspired him to speak), we should be praying for him and his family.  We must guard our own hearts and fill them with love and compassion.  Is our love really the unconditional love of the Father?  Such incidents test us.
    Are you without sin that you can cast stones? 

  30. Jim’s victim was not a willing participant at all.  She was someone he had been grooming since she was 12 to be his mistress without even realizing it.  He took advantage of her innocence and naivety.  He covered it up for years, and now that he has been outed, he is trying to cover his tracks and make it look like it’s all her fault.  How can it be her fault when she never even knew what was going on?  He worked her up to it for so long and so slowly from when she was so young that she was completely sucked in.I don’t want to hear about “forgiveness” and that “Jesus died for him too,” and that we shouldn’t condemn him and etc etc.  I condemn and curse him with all my heart.  It is unforgivable to take advantage of the innocence of a child the way he did.  You do NOT get to say “it was all her fault!” and expect everyone to just accept it and move on.  I refuse to move on.  I refuse to allow him to get away with this for even a second. Jim is a sick person and needs to be held 100% accountable for the disgusting scam he has been pulling on everyone for so many years.  I condemn his despicable actions.  I condemn his lies.  I condemn everything he does.  I have destroyed everything I have that was produced by him, and burned the remains in the wood stove. Women are people too.  They are not objects to be played with as if they were toys.  I will not be silent.  I will not back down.  I am furious.  He irreparably damaged someone I care deeply about, and that is not and will never be ok.  Ever.  No matter what.

    1. Are you saying that the physical encounters began when she was 12 years old?  And, respectfully, have you heard him publicly say it was all her fault?  I have not heard that statement; in fact, I’ve not heard Jim say anything about what happened beyond his initial letter, and I feel that he owes us that much.  Having listened to his messages for years, I would like to know how he could carry on an affair for eight years while preaching the message he did.  What happened, where did he begin to let go of his relationship with God?
      I have not heard a single person say “it was all her fault”.   I do have a problem with condemning and cursing anyone, including Jim, because I believe that only God has the right to curse a human being.  I am grateful for God’s forgiveness for my sins, and when I see how much He has forgiven me, how can I curse another?  At the same time, I absolutely abhor the sin.

      1. @bbcatcher I don’t know what the details are in this case, but unfortunately victim blaming is common among Christians who don’t understand how prevalent sexual assault really is and that it can happen to anyone.  Especially among fundamentalists who may hold inaccurate beliefs about sex and gender (“she was asking for it”, “men can’t be raped”, etc).I have heard people blame the victim in the case of Pipim; usually from those who can’t understand or accept how their beloved pastors could end up falling form grace so badly.  For some it’s as emotionally devastating as having a close family member betray them.  Their understanding of the world has been shattered, and denial is a classic coping mechanism.  At the very least, some attempt to mitigate the blame by saying both are at fault because they want very dearly to believe it was not as bad as it is being reported (and as someone who takes the side of the victim, I really wish it had NOT been sexual assault either for the poor girl’s sake).  I can imagine those who really looked up to Hohnberger have struggled with some serious denial regardless of the details of the case.  This just goes to show that when a spiritual leader commits such acts, he does damage to the people who depend on him, not just those who were directly involved.On the other hand, it’s very important not to spread hearsay and untruths.  If you hear something, make sure it’s not a rumor first.  When there are new facts in the case, they should at least be substantiated with a link or some valid reporting.  While I believe in forgiveness, we need to make sure we don’t do so at the expense of the victim(s).  When a powerless person, particularly a woman, comes forward with a testimony against a man who is famous and beloved, she does so at great risk to herself.  Contrast that with countless examples of false contrition from pastors who publicly apologize for getting caught red-handed but aren’t expected to actually make up for their crimes in any meaningful way.  “Forgiveness” does not mean brushing the truth under the rug, “forgiveness” does not mean everything is okay and we need to pretend it never happened, and most of all “forgiveness” should not be used to maintain an oppressive power-abuse system in our churches.  Otherwise things like this will keep on happening.

    2. So,  as one that knows that I am not, it is apparent that you think you get to be God,  always,  and no matter what.  
      While it is true that men are more culpable than women when sexual sin is consummated this type of hysteria is in large part WHY.  Women tend, especially in this postmodern age,  to have all or nothing thinking that distorts the very theory of forgiveness.  
      Being angry is one thing and predictable but unless you are privy to enlisting the rest of us into what you know and why you know it the last thing that YOU should do is to undermine an already bad situation because likely more of the men would tell you they do not even want to know what you know because they are not able to be part of the solution.  
      Using the words always and never is rarely a good idea but one of the only places I can feature never is:  Tearing people down on the internet is never a good idea.
      I wonder how many times you as an angry woman have let the sun set on your anger?

  31. Hi, I don’t really know this man, but what I could read in his words doesn’t tell me anything about a DISCREDITED MESSAGE, instead what I can read is DISCREDITING THE MESSAGE THAT I PREACH, something grammatically and conceptually diferent. So if he (Jim) had inappropriate physical interactions, is really sad because just who stumble understand… I can remember Peter who was reprehended by Paul in the Bible. Even the king David who was a man in agreement to God’s heart stumbled with Betsabe, but the message of his psalms are valid even now. Every thing in his perspective.
    Dr. Erick Zambrana

    1. angrywoman so sorry for u 
      Go not down unto the Angry man (woman) they he/she may be a snare unto thy soul.  You are convicted by your screen name lady.  And the fact you have said “you cannot forgive”  I could give you a little sermon on what happens to people that bottle up unforgiveness and anger, but I don’t think you would listen.  We have all seen you spew your venom here.  No one seems to be interested.  Odd.

    2. Robbiesann angrywoman so sorry for u 
      Yet you replied.  Clearly you are interested.
      I am trying to make a point with my screen name.  Christians are afraid of anger.  They view it as a sin, as something terrible, as something that can be avoided, and that is PRECISELY why people like Jim get away with this stuff. 
      If Christians let themselves get angry over the things that mattered, then the Christian world would be a better and safer place to be. 
      I know all about bottling up emotions of all kinds, believe me.  You don’t know me or my story, so you have no place giving me a sermon of any kind.
      And don’t call me “lady.”

    3. angrywoman Robbiesann so sorry for u 
      Yes, I stand corrected, clearly you are no lady.  I will not accuse you of being such again. Good luck with that anger thing.  There are helpful classes for that.

  32. bbcatcher   No, I am saying that she began idolizing him at that age, and he exploited that to get what he wanted, which culminated in physical things when she came into his employment as an adult. He used the brainwashing from her sheltered, naive upbringing to the fullest extent to his advantage.  
    Jim owes us the truth.  I do not believe we will ever hear it from him, though and this is why I refuse to even consider forgiving him.  
    You ask how he could carry on an affair while preaching the message he did?  The same way that white Christian males have done so for centuries.  Look at the scandals within the Catholic church with priests and pedophilia.  You don’t hear about this among Protestants, but it happens with alarming frequency – both pedophilia, and plan assault and rape of women, and the men get away with it every single time.  It’s a huge problem, and I refuse to sweep it under the rug.

  33. @Gary
    I am not hysterical.  What a misogynistic thing to say!  I am a person exactly the same as you and I have the right to be as angry as I want, without being condemned as hysterical.  Furthermore, my anger is NOT the reason why men are more culpable than women in sexual sin. 
    Men are more culpable because we live in a patriarchal society that teaches them that they are mere animals who cannot control themselves if they see certain things or if a woman does certain things; for that matter they are taught that they cannot control themselves period, and that sexual coercion is a perfectly normal and acceptable thing that happens. They are taught that woman are their property, and that a woman who considers herself equal and is not afraid to say no or to get angry, is being cold, frigid, a b*tch, and “hysterical,” which you have just called me. 
    The reality is that rape is about power, not about love or even sexual desire, and the idea that anyone could provoke this by the way they dress or the way they conduct themselves is ludicrous.  
    I am very close to this case, and you can trust me when I say that she was groomed from a child to fulfill his fantasy and his perversion.  He knew that she thought of him as a wonderful man of God and a leader to bring God’s word to the people.  He exploited that with abandon, and his plan worked for years.  He knew that she was a naive, sheltered little girl with no knowledge of the realities of life, and he used that to the last drop, to squeeze everything he possibly could out of her.  She had been brainwashed her whole life, and he just continued that with ease.  The physical contact didn’t start until he had succeeded in getting her into his employment as an adult.  But the idolization started at 12, and he knew it, and exploited it and the friendship he had with her family to get what he wanted. 
    I am most definitely and certainly NOT God.  Forgiveness is God’s job, not mine.  I am not obligated under any circumstance to forgive him, and never will.  If anyone else wants to do so, that is their prerogative.  But he has not demonstrated any worthiness of forgiveness at all.  He has tried to absolve himself of responsibility by pointing to her as the one at fault.  That is NOT apologizing.  That is NOT confessing.  That is NOT being remorseful.  That is NOT OK.  

    And you know what makes me the most angry of all?  The fact that he will get away with it to some extent or another, because he is a white, Christian male full of entitlement from his head to his toes, and no one thinks he’s guilty, because we’ve been taught to look up to male figures as almost godlike figures and we’ve been taught that as a woman, we are not smart enough and don’t know enough.  I’ve got news for you:  I AM smart enough, I DO know enough, and I am equal to every single man on the planet.  I am allowed to be angry, I am allowed to be furious, and I am allowed to call things what they are.  If it makes anyone uncomfortable, that is their problem and not mine.  
    Please do not pretend to be concerned for me because I am angry.  The setting sun has nothing to do with it, and if I choose to “go to bed angry” that is my prerogative, not yours.  This advice actually pertains mostly to the marital relationship, and in that aspect I do not let the sun go down on my anger because it would not be good for my relationship.  But when it comes to the patriarchy and to blatant sin, I go to bed angry every single night, and so should you.

    1. angrywoman
      I agree fully with your condemnation of a mature man taking advantage of a young girl, and what that will mean long-term for the girl’s life.
      I do not agree with the spirit of feminism that you have imbibed so deeply.
      You recite the usual mantra that “rape is about power, not desire.”  I marvel that women, such as you, know with total certainty what runs through the minds of men, and what motivates them.  I am a man, and know men’s motives a lot better than you do.  Rape is often about power; it is equally so (or more so) about sexual desire.  The two are generally mixed.  The feminist mantra is ludicrous.  Of course an unscrupulous man would rather rape an attractive young scantily-clad woman rather than a morbidly obese one, rather than 90 year old from a nursing home.  Your position lacks even common sense.  I don’t care how many PhD’s say it; it is absurd.  Eventually it comes time to say, the emperor has no clothes.
      There are still some men with integrity left.  I am an MD with a good income who could have taken advantage of many women over the years.  I have had blatant offers from a number of them.  I turned them all down.  On the other hand, I have consistently striven to treat women with respect and kindness.  Don’t lump all men together.  We are not all the same.
      Feminism, communism, socialism, and atheism all come from the same source.  The feminist movement has not benefited women, and it never will.  It is part of a program to subvert and destroy society.  That program is succeeding wildly.

    2. cfgauss Just switch “feminism” with “patriarchy”, “socialism” with “capitalistic greed”, and “atheism” with “religious fanaticism”.  Then your last paragraph will make sense.  I do not agree with the spirit of misogyny that you have imbibed so deeply.  It is part of a program to subvert and destroy society.  That program is succeeding wildly.
      P.S. Hey Giovanni, you want to clean up your comments section a bit? Let’s not give these nutjobs a platform anymore.

    3. ladybrigid cfgauss 
      You refer to the “spirit of misogyny that [I] have imbibed so deeply.”  Misogyny means hatred of women.  No reasonable person would construe from what I wrote, that I hated women in general.  You have already established yourself, from that leap in logic, to be unreasonable.  You also flunk basic reading comprehension.
      Your P.S. gets worse.  I was polite in my initial statement; you weren’t.  Seems to me that failure to worship Obama, in your opinion, is tantamount to insanity.  Liberalism used to pride itself on broadmindedness and tolerance, entities which you obviously lack entirely.  You appear to possess the mental capacity of a mob of Muslims rioting because Mohammed (peace be unto him) was depicted in a cartoon.  You both share the cognitive abilities of a patellar reflex arc.  You are not a liberal; you are a pseudo-liberal, and a fanatical one.
      What in the h*ll is patriarchy supposed to mean?  Seems to me, while you rage against the evil misdeeds of Joe Blow Smith, you fall directly into the traps of the David Rockefellers of the world, as they laugh all the way to their trillion dollar bank accounts.
      You speak of “capitalistic greed” as the opposite of “socialism”; you are ignorant of extensive documentation indicating that most of what has passed for socialism and communism in the recent past, has actually been pseudo-socialism, massively funded and backed by none other than giant capitalists (Rockefellers, Carnegies, etc.)  The 1917 Bolshevik revolution was funded to the hilt by big money from Wall Street and from German banks.  It was no people’s revolution.  Feminism is no grassroots movement by the common woman and for the common woman.  American “democracy” has not been by the people or for the people, for at least a century.  You have all been suckered, so badly that you wouldn’t recognize the truth if it hit you in the face.

  34. hohnbergeraffair bbcatcher   She was not a willing participant!  She was groomed for years, and her naivety was exploited to the fullest extent.  She did not understand what was going on.  When she finally began speaking with someone who pointed out what was going on, she realized it, and left immediately and without notice.  She was the victim in this situation.

  35. It is sad that this has
    happened with Jim. His book, Escape to God, has motivated me to change many
    sinful habits and have a different interaction with my wife. I do not believe
    that their messages come from Satan, but he knowing that Jim was a great instrument
    in God’s hands, ended up studying some weaknesses of Jim and he won success.
    Jim, my wife and I have read and enjoyed  a lot his works and what depend on me she will
    not know this sad news, because we live in Brazil and here the news arriving
    quite late. And I think that only hinder our decision to die more and more to
    our I.
    I will continue praying for you, for I
    have prayed for your ministry.
    Sidcley Pereira Gomes

  36. I Read thru these remarks, and it dawned on me that Christians really are the most horrific of people when confronted with someone elses Sin.  Jim has never portrayed himself as a saint, but rather a fellow sinner in the trenches.  Someone blows it, and look out.  Here comes the inquisition.  So many of the remarks start with…..”I don’t know the details of the case”  Then kindly just say nothing.  As to the rest of the inquisition, I so wish we could watch that video of your life now.  So he blew it, and essentially censured himself, is that it…according to your high inquisition is he finished forever.  No more service to ElShaddai for you….you pathetic sinner.  This thread is pathetic.  Jim and Sally have saved my family.  More than once in fact.  I consider him one of my best friends.  If you talked smack about him to my face I would likely go to jail for kicking your hypocritical ass.

    1. Robbiesann So you’d actually threaten violence because someone disagrees with you and then lecture other people on how they are not good Christians?  That’s how you defend a cult leader, not a fellow sinner.

      1. ladybrigid Robbiesann 
        I didnt lecture you.  I said you were pathetic.  Its different.  You can get into a smug chat room and talk smack about someone and its not gossip right?  You have zero accountability for attacking another person.  Enjoy your smug self righteousness lady. I dont want anything to do with you.

        1. Robbiesann ladybrigid 
          Ladybrigid didn’t say anything about what is or is not, gossip.  She did, however, make a very valid point about the way you seem to be defending your “best friend.”
          Calling people out is not gossip and it’s not “attacking,” nor is it smug self-righteousness.  YOU are displaying smug self-righteousness by calling us “pathetic sinners.”  You don’t know us.  How dare you condemn us like that? 
          Also, I call bullshit on your little story about Jim and Sally saving your family and being your best friend.  You wrote the word “ass” in your comment, and that isn’t something anyone in their circles would say.
          (At least not that I ever saw.)  And if it IS, that just shows me how much MORE of a hypocrite the lot of you are!

        2. angrywoman Robbiesann ladybrigid 
          What your shocked that Jim would be friends with a sinner?  Or much less be one himself?  Guess what, Its not only Gossip, its bearing false witness.  You don’t know motive, you don’t know anything besides your own polarized view.  You are defending your friend.  I get that, although I think you come across as a harpy.  When you think to take shots at another human, your not a Christian at all, but rather an ally of the Arch Accuser.  I stand that not only are you self righteous, but an angry wolf.  I am glad that we do not know each other.  I fear what you would be capable of if you were able to talk about me behind my back, or in a public forum.  You have your own sin, so sit down and shut up.  And you not believing my story….let me count the ways I don’t care that some angry harpy doesn’t believe me….oh noes…..the angry woman doesn’t believe me. Whatever shall I do.  From what I can tell Jim has expanded his circles considerably over the years from the uptight legalists that think they are perfect to real people, who know they have faults in their life and want to be better.  My defense of Jim is what every friend and Christian should be willing to do.  Stand up for him.  Love him,  Try to understand him. And forgive him. That’s what friends do.  When someone talks smack about your friend, you defend them against the likes of you.  And a hypocrite…..me, lol you got it all wrong.  I am the chief of sinners.  So keep taking your shots angry woman.  Its like drinking poison and hoping that it will hurt the other person.  You are killing yourself.

        3. Robbiesann angrywoman ladybrigid

          “…anger is always necessary.
          Because anger has driven every major movement for social change in this country, and probably in the world. The labor movement, the civil rights movement, the women’s suffrage movement, the modern feminist movement, the gay rights movement, the anti-war movement in the Sixties, the anti-war movement today, you name it… all of them have had, as a major driving force, a tremendous amount of anger. Anger over injustice, anger over mistreatment and brutality, anger over helplessness.
          I mean, why the hell else would people bother to mobilize social movements? Social movements are hard. They take time, they take energy, they sometimes take serious risk of life and limb, community and career. Nobody would fucking bother if they weren’t furious about something. 
          So when you tell an atheist (or for that matter, a woman or a queer or a person of color or whatever) not to be so angry, you are, in essence, telling us to disempower ourselves. You’re telling us to lay down one of the single most powerful tools we have at our disposal. You’re telling us to lay down a tool that no social change movement has ever been able to do without. You’re telling us to be polite and diplomatic, when history shows that polite diplomacy in a social change movement works far, far better when it’s coupled with passionate anger.”   -Greta Christina

        4. angrywoman Robbiesann ladybrigid
          “anger has driven every major movement for social change in this country”: this viewpoint is naïve.  Huge monopolies sprang up in the US after the Civil War, and the massive amounts of money so accumulated, was then used slyly for the last century, tax-free, to buy American public opinion.  Social movements have been successful only when the “bosses” chose.  The bosses agenda?  1.  Conflict, war, unrest: black vs. white, male vs. female, young vs. old, atheist vs. Christian, capitalist vs. communist, westerner vs. Muslim.  The agenda involved “perpetual war for perpetual peace”.  2.  Destruction of the US, destruction of traditional values, destruction of marriage, family, church, gender roles, etc.  Churchill called it a “world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality”. 
             The media is heart and soul into this program.  If 2 men have a fight, and the Hispanic guy is losing and then shoots the black guy, it is top national headlines.  If a woman gets raped in Chile, Turkey, India — it is national headlines in the USA.  Last week, the hubbub was over an obscure judge saying an obscure kid couldn’t be named “Messiah.”  Last year, an obscure minister falsely claimed to be a Navy Seal.  The word “rape” is in the headlines incessantly.  It seems that nobody notices that none of these stories are remotely national news (some didn’t even qualify for local news), and that the whole goal is just brainwashing and mental manipulation.  Welcome to the dumbed down, hypnotized USA.
          1.  Foundations: Their Power and Influence, Rene Wormser, 1958.
          2.  Winston Churchill, Illustrated Sunday Herald, Feb. 8, 1920, page 5.

        5. cfgauss 
          Something tells me that you are a white male and that you actually think the US was founded on Christian principles.

        6. angrywoman cfgauss
          1.  LOL = hot air
          2.  Does
          race matter?Does gender matter?If you say yes, then you are racist and
          sexist.If you say no, then you are
          admitting the truth, that you made an empty, irrelevant comment.  I nailed you both ways.  What in the h*ll does it matter what my skin
          color is or isn’t.
          3.  I said nothing regarding the US as “founded on Christian principles”.  The US constitution, last time I read it, said nothing regarding Christ or regarding any deity.  Your imagination is running wild.
          4.  You believe that massive bias and agenda on the part of the media is funny.  I will give you something else to laugh about.  In 1964, Bertrand Russell (mathematician, writer, philosopher, Nobel Prize winner) wrote an essay, “16 questions regarding the JFK assassination.”  Read it.  He detailed extensive evidence that the media and the government were cooperating closely in framing Oswald.  (Russell and Kennedy were both about the polar opposites of pious Southern Baptists, in case you didn’t know.)  If a popular Democratic president gets shot in the head in 1963 and the national media gets busy with a cover up, and justice was never done — I’d stop laughing if I were you, I’d shut off the TV and start thinking and stop gullibly trusting.  Again, maybe that’s too hard — perhaps your corpus callosum might fracture.

        7. cfgauss angrywoman 
          1.  Laughing does not equal hot air.  But have it your way.  I’ll just LOL more at your foolishness. 
          2. You didnt’ nail me either way.  Race and Gender are EXTREMELY relevant in our society.  Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves.  The patriarchy holds white males to be the highest step on the ladder of humanity.  White females are the property of white males.  People of color are not even human.  These ideas – centuries old – persist to this day.  It is NOT racist or sexist of me to point this out – simply truthful and honest.  And your skin color plays a huge role in the way you look at the world, so yes it does matter.  
          3. You said, speaking of “the bosses agenda” – “Destruction of the US, destruction of traditional values, destruction of marriage, family, church, gender roles, etc.”
          Um…. who made up “traditional” values, and the notion of family and church and gender roles?  Oh yeah, that’s right – CATHOLICS, and white males.  Traditional does not mean automatically right and good and wonderful.  It usually means elitist, privileged as fuck, and puritanical.  
          I stated what I did about the Constitution, because if these things are not actually in the Constitution, then they do not apply to the government or country as a whole, and all your doomsday pontificating about the “destruction” of them means nothing whatsoever to the ideals of freedom and liberty for all to pursue whatever path in life they choose.  
          4. I don’t think gullibly at all.  I happen to agree that the JFK assasination was a setup, just like I think that Lincoln’s was a setup, and that 9/11 was exploited and assisted by certain parts of the government.  So I’m the last person you should be calling gullible. Tell me again how I believe everything the media tells me!  You will be shocked to learn that I don’t actually watch TV unless it is to watch a show that I prerecorded (usually crime dramas and real life crime stories.)  
          So get out of here with your silly assumption that I need to turn off my TV. 
          5.  I am allowed to be angry.  End of discussion.  I don’t need some Christian nonsense about “not letting the sun go down on your wrath,” and “anger will only kill you” and “be sweet” and “how dare you be angry at me, you’re just brainwashed.”
          I am an intelligent, educated lady, thank-you very much, and I’m allowed to be as angry as I want for as long as I need to. 
          Especially when it comes to subjects like this where someone was completely violated and taken advantage of and everyone just wants to blame the victim and punish the victim instead of admitting that something is completely and utterly fucked up.  Because heaven forbid the man EVER be wrong.  EVER. 
          Well, fuck that and everything having to do with it.

        8. angrywoman cfgauss
          “Traditional does not mean automatically right and good and wonderful.”  I agree 100% with this statement of yours.
          “all your doomsday pontificating”: I find it highly concerning how much lying and deception goes on in today’s society.  Call it “pontificating” or what, I don’t care.  I find it concerning that the super-rich of the world want the luxury of Croesus for themselves and socialist, dumbed-down, straight-jacketed mediocrity for the rest of us, and that they will stop at nothing to accomplish their goals.  I find it concerning that the government, media, political parties, etc seem largely to be under their control.
          I am not a conservative Republican.  I haven’t voted for a Republican in about 15 years.  I generally don’t vote at all; I think the country is beyond repair.  My political bent is libertarian.
          If you want to be mad at the old boys club, go ahead.  I am male, but don’t belong to the club either.  Perhaps I should clarify that the “bosses” agenda, in my opinion, involves making men into dumb, useless playboys, so that they justifiably earn the scorn of outraged women such as yourself.  Hence, porn, sexualization and objectification of women, and the rest of that cr*p.  I have 4 sons; I am doing everything I can to keep them away from those mindsets.
          I was practically raised by my two older sisters.  I was their pet.  I don’t understand the “war between the sexes”; I have never felt involved in that at all.  I believe in treating all women with respect, kindness, and equality.  I believe men and women are different, but equally valuable as human beings.
          I freely agree with your anger at men who victimize or belittle women.  I agree with a significant portion of the goals of the feminist movement.  My main disagreement lies in the outcome of competition and conflict between men and women; I think reasonable men and women can and should cooperate, and that society is best off that way.
          We actually agree about many things.  I apologize for the friction and spark that sometimes get into these internet debates.

  37. He who is without sin can cast stones…… this saddens me to see. Jim is a good man and has repented and moved on.

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